Does anybody have any tips on installing cams. The instructions on hotcams website are not very good. I really want to do this myself for the satisfaction of saying I did it.
Help me out guys.
Thanks
Full Version: Hotcams Install
Haha! Okay, so far, I don't think there's been a complete install thread just about Hotcams here.
Start with what needs to be done:
*** The builder of the DRZ/LTZ Hotcams suggests this:
THe Hotcams intake cam should drop right in with the shims you have from the factory, which should be in the 285-range. The stock shims in the exhaust cam are usually in the 315-range, and they'll need to be dropped by 0.20mm - so you'd install 295s into both exhaust buckets. That's where you start, and it should be pretty close, by the time you get the final measurements...
Also, the Hotcams instruction sheet only lists the optimum clearances for the intake and exhaust cams - 0.15mm for the intakes, and 0.20mm for the exhausts. The tolerance range you need to hit is between 0.004~0.006" for the intakes (notice, that's in inches, not millimeters), and 0.008~0.010" for the exhausts.
Here's info you need right now (minus the stock cams timing info) and that will be a great start for Hotcams installation - I'll add to this thread with the specific info...
Start with what needs to be done:
- Strip the quad down (gas tank and front plastics removed)
- Valve cover removal
- TDC setting
- Measuring the clearances (valve lash) you have with the stock cams in there
- ACCT removal
- Cam cover removal
- Cam removal
- Cam chain control (keeping it from dropping down into the lower block)
- Removing the tappets, and checking the shim sizes you have in there now
- Replacing the shims you have with what you'll need for the Hotcams (*** read below)
- New cam installation, with cam timing (verifying timing - includes ACCT re-installation)
- Replacing cam journal covers
- Measuring valve lash with the new cams
- Adjusting shims again (if necessary)
- Buttoning up the motor
- Breaking in the new cams, and checking valve lash
*** The builder of the DRZ/LTZ Hotcams suggests this:
THe Hotcams intake cam should drop right in with the shims you have from the factory, which should be in the 285-range. The stock shims in the exhaust cam are usually in the 315-range, and they'll need to be dropped by 0.20mm - so you'd install 295s into both exhaust buckets. That's where you start, and it should be pretty close, by the time you get the final measurements...
Also, the Hotcams instruction sheet only lists the optimum clearances for the intake and exhaust cams - 0.15mm for the intakes, and 0.20mm for the exhausts. The tolerance range you need to hit is between 0.004~0.006" for the intakes (notice, that's in inches, not millimeters), and 0.008~0.010" for the exhausts.
Here's info you need right now (minus the stock cams timing info) and that will be a great start for Hotcams installation - I'll add to this thread with the specific info...
QUOTE (NormalZ @ Feb 20 2007, 10:00 AM) 
TDC. Get the motor at TDC first. Don't line up the "T", line up the vertical line to the left of the "T," just as mentioned above.
Two green circles in this pic. Timing marks are on the side of the flywheel under the inspection plug in the top green circle. Take out the inspection plug in the bottom green circle to access the nut to turn the crank over by hand. Much easier with the sparkplug out. Observe through the top hole, inspection plug removed, until you see the timing mark come up. It'll look like a "T" with a verticle line to the left of the "T." Line up that line with the arrow on the sidecase. That's TDC. Make sure you only turn the crank counterclockwise, and keep the camchain up and out of the way, so it doesn't get bound around the camchain drive gear.
Here's what the marks should line up, when you're dead-nutz on TDC:
After you get TDC set, you need to set the cams up just like this:
When you think you're timed right on the cams, check to make sure the motor is still at TDC. To verify that your cams are timed right, stick your finger in the ACCT hole, and push on the cam chain guide - watch the cam sprockets, and see if it's still timed right; see if they move. If it's good, bolt in the ACCT. Once the ACCT is bolted in (7lb/ft on the housing bolts and 21.5lb/ft on the center bolt, holding the spring), then recheck TDC, and recheck the timing on the cam sprockets. Next, bolt down the cam journal covers.
You have to have the cam journal covers tightened down (7lb/ft) in order to get an accurate measurement for the valve lash. If the valve lash if off (not between the tolerance range listed below), then you have to tear the whole thing back down and change shims. Bring it all back up, and measure again. If you measure accurately, and calculate it right, you'll only have to take it down once.
After you get TDC set, then you get the cams timed, and get the cams bolted down, then you measure your clearances.
Stock Intakes:
0.10~0.20mm
Stock Exhausts:
0.20~0.30mm
If you do all those steps, in order and accurately, and that doesn't start your engine... Then the problem isn't timing or valve lash.
Happy Wrenching!
Two green circles in this pic. Timing marks are on the side of the flywheel under the inspection plug in the top green circle. Take out the inspection plug in the bottom green circle to access the nut to turn the crank over by hand. Much easier with the sparkplug out. Observe through the top hole, inspection plug removed, until you see the timing mark come up. It'll look like a "T" with a verticle line to the left of the "T." Line up that line with the arrow on the sidecase. That's TDC. Make sure you only turn the crank counterclockwise, and keep the camchain up and out of the way, so it doesn't get bound around the camchain drive gear.
Here's what the marks should line up, when you're dead-nutz on TDC:
After you get TDC set, you need to set the cams up just like this:
When you think you're timed right on the cams, check to make sure the motor is still at TDC. To verify that your cams are timed right, stick your finger in the ACCT hole, and push on the cam chain guide - watch the cam sprockets, and see if it's still timed right; see if they move. If it's good, bolt in the ACCT. Once the ACCT is bolted in (7lb/ft on the housing bolts and 21.5lb/ft on the center bolt, holding the spring), then recheck TDC, and recheck the timing on the cam sprockets. Next, bolt down the cam journal covers.
You have to have the cam journal covers tightened down (7lb/ft) in order to get an accurate measurement for the valve lash. If the valve lash if off (not between the tolerance range listed below), then you have to tear the whole thing back down and change shims. Bring it all back up, and measure again. If you measure accurately, and calculate it right, you'll only have to take it down once.
After you get TDC set, then you get the cams timed, and get the cams bolted down, then you measure your clearances.
Stock Intakes:
0.10~0.20mm
Stock Exhausts:
0.20~0.30mm
If you do all those steps, in order and accurately, and that doesn't start your engine... Then the problem isn't timing or valve lash.
Happy Wrenching!
Thanks a lot. Thats a lot of good information. Can't wait to hear the rest of what you have.
QUOTE (ILquadrider @ May 5 2007, 10:21 AM)
Thanks a lot. Thats a lot of good information. Can't wait to hear the rest of what you have.
The post above deals with timing a stock-cam setup, and about the only difference between what's above and what you'll need to do will be adjusting/timing the Hotcams.
Hotcams used to come with paint marks on them that you'd use to time them. The newer versions are now punched (they have punch marks along the cam sprocket) in the same places as these paint marks. Here's what a set of Hotcams with the paint marks looks like when you've got them timed right:
Depending on what you have (paint marks or punch marks), they'll still line up like that. That's how to set them in with the motor at TDC.
Keep in mind that you have to get 15 pins (in the camchain) from mark-to-mark on the stock cams - not so on Hotcams. With the Hotcams, you'll have 14 1/2 pins between the marks - the Intake cam sprocket mark will right in between the 14th and 15th pin, while the Exhaust cam sprocket mark will line up right under a pin.
Ok thanks a lot. This gives me a lot more confidence that I can do it myself. My cams used to have the paint marks but they were partially worn off so I had to get them remarked and now they have the punch marks.
With the markings on the cam sprockets timed right and the motor at TDC, like in the pic above, here's what the lobes should look like (other side of the motor):
When you're measuring your valve lash, here where the feeler gauges go in - right under each cam lobe. Angled feeler gauges work great.
When you're measuring your valve lash, here where the feeler gauges go in - right under each cam lobe. Angled feeler gauges work great.
Bump - lots of cam timing questions lately...
QUOTE (NormalZ @ May 25 2007, 05:58 PM)
Bump - lots of cam timing questions lately...
Bump again
this should be stickied or pinned.
this is a great thread lots of info. when i had my cams installed at my dealer i noticed a pretty bad ticking sound from the top end of my engine. I figured something was wrong so i tore it down and sent the head back in to have some kibble white valves installed while i was installing the D.I.D. cam chain. when i got it back from them they told me that the chain guard / slider that is bolted to the top of the cam journals, was too close to the cam gears and the small bolts that hold the sprocket on the cam shaft was just barely hitting the guide/slider. so they modified it so that it could push back farther away from the sprocket, after i had it all installed i turned the engine completly threw to make sure it never touched and now it seems to be missing it now. I have not got it running yet still need to put the carb on and exhaust but i will let you guys now if that helped stop that stupid tick that the engine makes.
aparently the cam gears are thicker on the hotcams than the stockers.
aparently the cam gears are thicker on the hotcams than the stockers.
QUOTE (rumlesj1 @ Sep 30 2007, 10:05 AM)
aparently the cam gears are thicker on the hotcams than the stockers.
I had to grind on my top chain guide for it to clear the hotcams.
I know that there are several people running 2 stage 2 exhaust hotcams in there engines since they are the same exact cam however how do i get them correct in time.
QUOTE (znewbie @ Dec 7 2007, 07:47 PM)
I know that there are several people running 2 stage 2 exhaust hotcams in there engines since they are the same exact cam however how do i get them correct in time.
Read above post, will tell you everything you need to know.
i am not finding the exact info that i am looking for in this post.
QUOTE (KFXguy2006 @ Dec 8 2007, 02:06 AM)
Read above post, will tell you everything you need to know.
install the exhaust side cam first.....then line the timing marks up the oppisote on the the other side.
QUOTE (znewbie @ Dec 7 2007, 10:47 PM)
I know that there are several people running 2 stage 2 exhaust hotcams in there engines since they are the same exact cam however how do i get them correct in time.
Are you talking about setting the lobe centerline angles?
If so, I say dont mess with them. Its too complicated for about 99% of the people that will ever own them.
First you will need to find True TDC with a degree wheel and a positive stop... Here'e how
QUOTE
You mount the degree wheel to the crank shaft and line up 0 some where near where it should be. Then you make a pointer out of a stiff piece of wire.
Then you take the spark plug out, move the piston away from top dead center and install a positive stop (which is kind of hard to find in the 10mm size that fits the Z)
Then you rotate the engine carefully untill you come up against the positive stop with the piston, note the degree reading, then rotate the other direction untill you come up against the stop again, note the reading.
Adjust the pointer untill you hit the same number of degrees from 0 each way.
Then after all of that, 0 on your degree wheel is exactly at top dead center
Here is a description by Ticeman explaining how to set the LCL...Then you take the spark plug out, move the piston away from top dead center and install a positive stop (which is kind of hard to find in the 10mm size that fits the Z)
Then you rotate the engine carefully untill you come up against the positive stop with the piston, note the degree reading, then rotate the other direction untill you come up against the stop again, note the reading.
Adjust the pointer untill you hit the same number of degrees from 0 each way.
Then after all of that, 0 on your degree wheel is exactly at top dead center
QUOTE
Finding Lobe center line angle Quoted from Ticeman (the guy who designed hot cams)
Lobe centerline is the relationship of the camshaft to the crankshaft at any given crank angle when the valve is off the seat using equal opening and closing lifts of the valve. The lobe centerline can then be figured in degrees of crankshaft rotation by finding out how far the crank has been rotated and how long the valve has been open during that time.
Since we already know that the duration of these cams are 243 deg we can figure out what the opening and closing should be with the valve lash set at ZERO. We could work this backwards but it won't give you the corrct perspective of what's actually happening. We know that the intakes are going to open before bottom dead center and close after top dead center. Using a degree wheel on the crankshaft and finding ABSOLUTE TDC with a positive stop so that we KNOW where TDC is actually at, you rotate the crank clockwise until the valve is lifted off the seat .050" measured with a dial gauge that is set-up to the correct valve actuation angle. If the lash is zero it will lift at 49.5 deg BBDC and it will be at 13.5 deg ATDC when it closes. I'll short cut the math for you using a 90 deg wheel. 49.5 - 13.5 = 36. 36/2 = 18. 18 + 90 = 108
These cams are symetrical and means that the exhaust is figured the same way as the intake. It'll open the exhaust valve at 13.5 deg BTDC and close at 49.5 deg ABDC. Same math applies.
You have to keep in mind that it's VERY important to make sure all your readings are consistent. Do this a couple three times to make sure it reads the same each time. If it doesn't, something is set-up wrong.
Lobe centerline is the relationship of the camshaft to the crankshaft at any given crank angle when the valve is off the seat using equal opening and closing lifts of the valve. The lobe centerline can then be figured in degrees of crankshaft rotation by finding out how far the crank has been rotated and how long the valve has been open during that time.
Since we already know that the duration of these cams are 243 deg we can figure out what the opening and closing should be with the valve lash set at ZERO. We could work this backwards but it won't give you the corrct perspective of what's actually happening. We know that the intakes are going to open before bottom dead center and close after top dead center. Using a degree wheel on the crankshaft and finding ABSOLUTE TDC with a positive stop so that we KNOW where TDC is actually at, you rotate the crank clockwise until the valve is lifted off the seat .050" measured with a dial gauge that is set-up to the correct valve actuation angle. If the lash is zero it will lift at 49.5 deg BBDC and it will be at 13.5 deg ATDC when it closes. I'll short cut the math for you using a 90 deg wheel. 49.5 - 13.5 = 36. 36/2 = 18. 18 + 90 = 108
These cams are symetrical and means that the exhaust is figured the same way as the intake. It'll open the exhaust valve at 13.5 deg BTDC and close at 49.5 deg ABDC. Same math applies.
You have to keep in mind that it's VERY important to make sure all your readings are consistent. Do this a couple three times to make sure it reads the same each time. If it doesn't, something is set-up wrong.
Hope that helps
the old hotcams were exactly the same (intake and exhaust). There is a post around here somewhere, that tells you how to time an exhaust cam as an intake cam. I'm pretty sure it didnt involve a degree wheel. I think you only use one of the painted marks on the cam. see what marks (if any) line up when you set the lobes in the right position with the piston at TDC.
do u have to take everything off the bike to put cams in it like the intake.
Read above. Normal Z explains how to do it all. All you have to do is remove the front plastics and gas tank.
And to think I started this thread and never even used it. Didn't end up changing cams in my z.
QUOTE (ILquadrider @ Jan 27 2008, 10:53 PM)
And to think I started this thread and never even used it. Didn't end up changing cams in my z.
That's alright, man - no worries. The info is up here now and can help out other people - if they'd bother to read it...
very useful thats for sure!! Helped me out!
QUOTE (ILquadrider @ May 3 2007, 06:46 PM)
Does anybody have any tips on installing cams. The instructions on hotcams website are not very good. I really want to do this myself for the satisfaction of saying I did it.
Help me out guys.
Thanks
Help me out guys.
Thanks
I think it's easier to have a buddy that can help you do it,
i had my stage 1 installed by suzuki, with labor costs of about $75
What is the ACCT hole?
QUOTE (zebradog @ Feb 7 2008, 11:58 AM)
What is the ACCT hole?
its on the back right side of the engine. its the cam chain tensioner.
oh and normalz, this info will come in handy for me eventually. my oshc are sitting on the shelf begging for a new home.
Thanks for all the info guys, this is very helpful, but 1 question? you guys say to line up TDC from the Arrow on the side case to the Line beside the "T" but according to the clymer Manual it says to line up the Arrow with the "T" not the line beside it, so which one is right & does it really make a difference? I just want to make sure I get a full understanding of where TDC really is!!!
It is the dash mark not the T. Just make sure the arrow and the dash mark line up, and you are on the up stroke and you should be at TDC. The cam lobes should look just like they do in the pics above.
Great info all I hope to be doing this soon and this thread really helps where the service manual gets kinda vague.
I just bought a set of oshc's and noticed the index marks on the intke cam look way off. When held by the left and right index parallel left and right and the top index straight up.. the lobes are pointing downward instead of slightly upward like my stage one's. This isn't correct is it? Am I going to have to have this cam redegreed?
The bottom pic I am hoding the index lines with each finger and the top index is close to straight up..
The bottom pic I am hoding the index lines with each finger and the top index is close to straight up..
that looks right to me, it should be mostly flat on the bottom against the buckets
QUOTE (Camaro1976 @ Aug 30 2008, 02:42 PM)
that looks right to me, it should be mostly flat on the bottom against the buckets
Really? Look at Normalz's picture above in this thread the lobes are pointing upwards a little. Thats how they look on my new styles and the ex marks on my old styles line the lobes a little up just like the pic in his thread. So is the oshc intake index marks a little different?
idk, i can't think straight right now been ruelly busy today and not much sleep last night.
also, my marks weren't perfectly straight parallal to the head like his show, mine were a little bit off but as close as possible to make the chain mesh with the sprockets
also, my marks weren't perfectly straight parallal to the head like his show, mine were a little bit off but as close as possible to make the chain mesh with the sprockets
QUOTE (Camaro1976 @ Aug 30 2008, 02:50 PM)
idk, i can't think straight right now been ruelly busy today and not much sleep last night.
also, my marks weren't perfectly straight parallal to the head like his show, mine were a little bit off but as close as possible to make the chain mesh with the sprockets
also, my marks weren't perfectly straight parallal to the head like his show, mine were a little bit off but as close as possible to make the chain mesh with the sprockets
Yeah I know what you mean there, my new styles were a touch off the head line, but this intake lined up on the bottom of the head looks like it will put the lobe way too far down on the bucket. Anyone else have any input? It doesnt look like the sprockets been in a different position before.... (no bolt marks on the sprocket walls.)
heres another pic of an old style hotcam intake
and yours
so it looks like your good
and yours
so it looks like your good
QUOTE (Camaro1976 @ Aug 30 2008, 03:00 PM)
heres another pic of an old style hotcam intake
and yours
so it looks like your good
and yours
so it looks like your good
cool I guess its set different for the duration or something.. If you line up the two flat indexes and your 3rd index straight up at 90 does the lobe point downward from flat a little?
QUOTE (grass valley-z- @ Aug 30 2008, 03:06 PM)
cool I guess its set different for the duration or something.. If you line up the two flat indexes and your 3rd index straight up at 90 does the lobe point downward from flat a little?
I guess it would have to to answer my own question...
I don't think its off at all, if you look at the marks on the other cam, they match yours...you just have it upside down.
QUOTE (KFXguy2006 @ Aug 30 2008, 09:36 PM)
I don't think its off at all, if you look at the marks on the other cam, they match yours...you just have it upside down.
yeah camaro already answered my question by showing me a pic of his intake cam. All I wanted to know was if his marks were in the same position and they obviously are...
QUOTE (grass valley-z- @ Aug 31 2008, 07:55 AM)
yeah camaro already answered my question by showing me a pic of his intake cam. All I wanted to know was if his marks were in the same position and they obviously are...
So I dropped those oshc's in today and sure enough the lobe on the intake looks off... I forgot to bring my camera to my shop today but I'll shoot some pics tomorrow. When the intake is lined up with the factory paint lines the apex of the lobe is pointing downward(towards the bucket). The exhaust cam lobes look dead on to my stage ones and normalz's how to pics (pointing slightly upward). Does someone know if the oshc's intake has a different position at tdc than the new styles? I cycled the motor a couple times and everything seems smooth....
Grass, DO NOT run your motor. DO NOT.
That intake cam looks like it's got the sprocket mounted 90 degrees off. I'll look at it more and get in here with details tonight. Don't run that motor...
That intake cam looks like it's got the sprocket mounted 90 degrees off. I'll look at it more and get in here with details tonight. Don't run that motor...
QUOTE (NormalZ @ Sep 2 2008, 05:40 PM)
Grass, DO NOT run your motor. DO NOT.
That intake cam looks like it's got the sprocket mounted 90 degrees off. I'll look at it more and get in here with details tonight. Don't run that motor...
That intake cam looks like it's got the sprocket mounted 90 degrees off. I'll look at it more and get in here with details tonight. Don't run that motor...
Yeah, I wasn't planning to until someone could tell me if the cam position was different. It isn't even close to the position of my new styles... Thanks in advance for any input.
QUOTE (grass valley-z- @ Aug 30 2008, 02:37 PM)
The bottom pic I am hoding the index lines with each finger and the top index is close to straight up..
That's not right. Doesn't matter what the paint marks on the sprocket look like, if those paint marks aren't degreed to the lobes, and those lobes are off by about 90 degrees. With your fingers holding that cam sprocket right on the side marks, and you say the top mark is pointing straight up, then the cam lobes should be pointing in this direction (red arrow in the pic below) for the intake cam.
Intake lobe center on the OSHC was 108 degrees, and the website now lists the spec for the NSHC at 107.5 degrees. Whatever the difference, that pic above, if you use those timing marks - IS NOT 107.5 degree lobe center. That chit is off. Way off.
Pic of what I'm talking about - it should be pointed up towards the red arrow:
QUOTE (NormalZ @ Sep 2 2008, 11:23 PM)
That's not right. Doesn't matter what the paint marks on the sprocket look like, if those paint marks aren't degreed to the lobes, and those lobes are off by about 90 degrees. With your fingers holding that cam sprocket right on the side marks, and you say the top mark is pointing straight up, then the cam lobes should be pointing in this direction (red arrow in the pic below) for the intake cam.
Intake lobe center on the OSHC was 108 degrees, and the website now lists the spec for the NSHC at 107.5 degrees. Whatever the difference, that pic above, if you use those timing marks - IS NOT 107.5 degree lobe center. That chit is off. Way off.
Pic of what I'm talking about - it should be pointed up towards the red arrow:
Intake lobe center on the OSHC was 108 degrees, and the website now lists the spec for the NSHC at 107.5 degrees. Whatever the difference, that pic above, if you use those timing marks - IS NOT 107.5 degree lobe center. That chit is off. Way off.
Pic of what I'm talking about - it should be pointed up towards the red arrow:
Thanks man, I new something was wrong right when I pulled that thing out of the box. I dont know what the hell its degreed for... but hopefully the member I purchased them from will take them back... It sure aint worth paying someone to degree them for the z at this point.
What does your exhaust cam look like? Is it right? I can degree those things for you, to the Hotcams specs, your specs, whatever you want.
QUOTE (grass valley-z- @ Sep 3 2008, 07:23 AM)
Thanks man, I new something was wrong right when I pulled that thing out of the box. I dont know what the hell its degreed for... but hopefully the member I purchased them from will take them back... It sure aint worth paying someone to degree them for the z at this point.
i have the new style hotcams with maybe an hour of run time on them. i would trade with you depending on what the guy that is porting and polishing my head says about what cam profile i need. as soon as he contacts me i will send you a pm if interested
QUOTE (eric.w.13 @ Sep 3 2008, 08:34 PM)
i have the new style hotcams with maybe an hour of run time on them. i would trade with you depending on what the guy that is porting and polishing my head says about what cam profile i need. as soon as he contacts me i will send you a pm if interested
I already have newstyle hc's (in my sig) plus I already sent them back to the guy I bought them from.
QUOTE (NormalZ @ Sep 3 2008, 07:11 PM)
What does your exhaust cam look like? Is it right? I can degree those things for you, to the Hotcams specs, your specs, whatever you want.
I sent them back to the guy I got the from, the exhaust cam looked fine. I will let the member I bought them from know. I move fast, I already got another set of oshc's for $130 shipped, this time I got photo's from ALL angles.. they look good! (STEAL!) Thanks, Erik
Man! You ARE fast! I already replied to your PM before reading this thread again. 
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