I've had this friend of mine for a few years.
He has a decent 400EX.
He like to talk a lot of trash, but everytime it comes down to racing he backs out.
The only two times we raced I took him on the straights and he'd catch me in the turns. But not pass.
Well as some of you know, I recently took up the Flat track and TT racing style.
He has yet to come challenge me.
The real story is this.
My 400 has no more than :
Hot cams
14.5:1 compression
Gear changes
Tires
and me riding it.
I race with a 502 YFZ, a cammed up 14:1 YFZ, a 15:1 450R, and a 13.5:1 hot cammed 450R, on any givin weekend.
Not to mention the hopped up banshee's that run around there too.
My little 400, because it was built for the purpose of high rpm racing with wide open throttle, uses a stock carb, stock head pipe and slip on FMF Powercore4.
I come in 3rd or 4th in this croud. Normally right behind the 502, and the banshee.
Well I got a challenge from another guy on the track running his cammed up DASA 450R.
So we come ripping down the front straight and he's holding just in front of me.
I'm thinking man, this sucks I'm gonna lose....
Then I stay right with him on the straight, not too bad 'eh.
But we come back into turn 1 and I never let out just cam in, pushed it sideways, straighten back up and run. I looked back and here he is running full out, hit the rev limiter and was still 15 feet behind me.
There's nothing like passing a guy with a motor way bigger than yours, and then reminding him that youve only got a 400. hahaha.
BTW. In case you guy's didn't know. For the high rpm riding style, high compression beats big bore any day.
If I can round up an FCR and a decent head pipe I'll be passing the banshee and going after the stroker in the lead.
I can already keep up with them, just can't pass them.... yet.
Full Version: Oval Track Beating
QUOTE (zophar @ Sep 16 2008, 10:33 PM) 
I've had this friend of mine for a few years.
He has a decent 400EX.
He like to talk a lot of trash, but everytime it comes down to racing he backs out.
The only two times we raced I took him on the straights and he'd catch me in the turns. But not pass.
Well as some of you know, I recently took up the Flat track and TT racing style.
He has yet to come challenge me.
The real story is this.
My 400 has no more than :
Hot cams
14.5:1 compression
Gear changes
Tires
and me riding it.
I race with a 502 YFZ, a cammed up 14:1 YFZ, a 15:1 450R, and a 13.5:1 hot cammed 450R, on any givin weekend.
Not to mention the hopped up banshee's that run around there too.
My little 400, because it was built for the purpose of high rpm racing with wide open throttle, uses a stock carb, stock head pipe and slip on FMF Powercore4.
I come in 3rd or 4th in this croud. Normally right behind the 502, and the banshee.
Well I got a challenge from another guy on the track running his cammed up DASA 450R.
So we come ripping down the front straight and he's holding just in front of me.
I'm thinking man, this sucks I'm gonna lose....
Then I stay right with him on the straight, not too bad 'eh.
But we come back into turn 1 and I never let out just cam in, pushed it sideways, straighten back up and run. I looked back and here he is running full out, hit the rev limiter and was still 15 feet behind me.
BTW. In case you guy's didn't know. For the high rpm riding style, high compression beats big bore any day.
If I can round up an FCR and a decent head pipe I'll be passing the banshee and going after the stroker in the lead.
I can already keep up with them, just can't pass them.... yet.
He has a decent 400EX.
He like to talk a lot of trash, but everytime it comes down to racing he backs out.
The only two times we raced I took him on the straights and he'd catch me in the turns. But not pass.
Well as some of you know, I recently took up the Flat track and TT racing style.
He has yet to come challenge me.
The real story is this.
My 400 has no more than :
Hot cams
14.5:1 compression
Gear changes
Tires
and me riding it.
I race with a 502 YFZ, a cammed up 14:1 YFZ, a 15:1 450R, and a 13.5:1 hot cammed 450R, on any givin weekend.
Not to mention the hopped up banshee's that run around there too.
My little 400, because it was built for the purpose of high rpm racing with wide open throttle, uses a stock carb, stock head pipe and slip on FMF Powercore4.
I come in 3rd or 4th in this croud. Normally right behind the 502, and the banshee.
Well I got a challenge from another guy on the track running his cammed up DASA 450R.
So we come ripping down the front straight and he's holding just in front of me.
I'm thinking man, this sucks I'm gonna lose....
Then I stay right with him on the straight, not too bad 'eh.
But we come back into turn 1 and I never let out just cam in, pushed it sideways, straighten back up and run. I looked back and here he is running full out, hit the rev limiter and was still 15 feet behind me.
BTW. In case you guy's didn't know. For the high rpm riding style, high compression beats big bore any day.
If I can round up an FCR and a decent head pipe I'll be passing the banshee and going after the stroker in the lead.
I can already keep up with them, just can't pass them.... yet.
You mean to try to tell us that your Z400 w/ those few mods is out runnin` that DASA built 450R?!?!?!
SORRY but...I DON`T THINK SO!!! (UNLESS that guy just can`t ride it worth a chit! & you`re just a better rider than he is...which is probably the case seeing that you got around him in the turn).
A 450R`s stock CDI has a higher rev-limit than a stock Z`s CDI...so if he`s bouncin` off the rev-limiter just TRYING to keep up w/ your Z...then he needs to do some re-gearing then, cuz he`s obviously got it geared a bit too low. If your STOCK CDI equipped Z isn`t also bouncin` off the rev-limiter then you`ve got it geared plenty tall enough then (enough to match up to whatever the length of the straights are on that track)...& possibly even a bit TOO tall...since your friend w/ the 400EX can catch you in the turns (your probably geared too tall for the turns). Ya need to have a happy median on your gearing for the WHOLE track.
How the heck do you consider your Z400 as being purpose built for HIGH RPM type racing w/ a STOCK headpipe/ STOCK carb/ & a STOCK CDI...??? (I`m not going to scrutinize the stock head as it actually does flow pretty good in stock form).
at jets ranting
Instead of building a motor for torque (which isn't used as much as people think) we aimed for more high end power band with our choice of cams, and high compression. After consulting the tech guys at JE Piston, who makes BB kits as well, they also came to teh conclusion that since you're never really "out" of the throttle there was no need for big bore. BB also adds more mass that has to get wound up to the same rpm, which would make for a little slower launch.
Since they also race froma roling start there was not a need for building to a quick launch off the line.
Granted it does still have the stock carb and head pipe. The head has been ported, and the exaust has actually been machined on the head side to decrease flow resistance. (they have a boogered up weld from the factory, which actually helps with torque)
The two situations, the 400EX and the 450R are actually at different locations, and it different times. I guess I should have noted that. The last time the EX lined up it was a joke on the TT track, the only time he caught me was when I was stock.
The DASA motor was after the building of the 400 motor. I didn't just pass him in the turn, I ran off and left him afterwards. Note that I "looked back... and he was still 15 feet behind me."
It's not all rider that passed him, and I don't have a stock CDI, it's a Dyna FS. As for gears, they're not TOO tall for the motor, I still hit 5th if I'm having to run hard, which is when I pass the B/S'ed banshee, and the 502 YFZ. In case you think I'm running too short i am running a 15/39 gearing.
I don't know if you've ever heard of the place or not, SandTrax. He builds all out motors, some for AMA legal racing and some for outlaw circuits. He's running a beefed up CRF motor on an EX frame with over a thousand dollars of suspension. Also rides like a mad man, I've yet to pass him but I can at least keep up.
Another thing that tells me it's not all rider, is the weekend I broke my ankle I was actually running through a crowd of guys that ran the national events, and one of which won 4 of the shorter tracks.
Don't know if you've seen the nationals run, we were getting and easy 60-65 mph in the turns, and it's nothing on a good hot lap to run 80's on the straights.
Granted I COULD go with the FCR and larger head pipe to really run through the pack, but I plan on building another 450R next year, so what would it matter.
Since they also race froma roling start there was not a need for building to a quick launch off the line.
Granted it does still have the stock carb and head pipe. The head has been ported, and the exaust has actually been machined on the head side to decrease flow resistance. (they have a boogered up weld from the factory, which actually helps with torque)
The two situations, the 400EX and the 450R are actually at different locations, and it different times. I guess I should have noted that. The last time the EX lined up it was a joke on the TT track, the only time he caught me was when I was stock.
The DASA motor was after the building of the 400 motor. I didn't just pass him in the turn, I ran off and left him afterwards. Note that I "looked back... and he was still 15 feet behind me."
It's not all rider that passed him, and I don't have a stock CDI, it's a Dyna FS. As for gears, they're not TOO tall for the motor, I still hit 5th if I'm having to run hard, which is when I pass the B/S'ed banshee, and the 502 YFZ. In case you think I'm running too short i am running a 15/39 gearing.
I don't know if you've ever heard of the place or not, SandTrax. He builds all out motors, some for AMA legal racing and some for outlaw circuits. He's running a beefed up CRF motor on an EX frame with over a thousand dollars of suspension. Also rides like a mad man, I've yet to pass him but I can at least keep up.
Another thing that tells me it's not all rider, is the weekend I broke my ankle I was actually running through a crowd of guys that ran the national events, and one of which won 4 of the shorter tracks.
Don't know if you've seen the nationals run, we were getting and easy 60-65 mph in the turns, and it's nothing on a good hot lap to run 80's on the straights.
Granted I COULD go with the FCR and larger head pipe to really run through the pack, but I plan on building another 450R next year, so what would it matter.
he has a dyna cdi
it says in his sig
it says in his sig
QUOTE (zophar @ Sep 16 2008, 10:33 PM)
My 400 has no more than :
Hot cams
14.5:1 compression
Gear changes
Tires
and me riding it.
Hot cams
14.5:1 compression
Gear changes
Tires
and me riding it.
Ya forgot to put the Dyna CDI on that list!
. I usually always check people`s sigs for their mods, but I didn`t pay much attention to your sig on this one (my fault for not checkin` it) & I was goin` by what ya had listed in your post.QUOTE (z400kiksazz @ Oct 3 2008, 09:40 AM)
at jets rantingNah man...I wasn`t rantin` (it wasn`t intended to look that way anyway...I was just more/less callin` BULLCHIT on it is all).
QUOTE (zophar @ Oct 3 2008, 10:12 AM)
BB also adds more mass that has to get wound up to the same rpm, which would make for a little slower launch.
Since they also race froma roling start there was not a need for building to a quick launch off the line.
Yeah I know that BBK`s add more reciprocating weight/mass...& the bigger the BBK...the more it adds (that`s why I favor the smaller sized BBK`s...they add a nice boost in power, but they still have a quick rev...which to me is yet another one of those "happy median" things. ).
Granted it does still have the stock carb and head pipe.
^^^^^THAT`S what I`m sayin`!!! Those 2 things right there are KILLIN` your "purpose built high RPM motor" (which ya basically acknowledged that fact & you`re aware that ya need to upgrade those 2 things in the future. ).
The two situations, the 400EX and the 450R are actually at different locations, and it different times. I guess I should have noted that. The last time the EX lined up it was a joke on the TT track, the only time he caught me was when I was stock.
That`s basically irrelevent...the main thing is...that the guy on the 400EX catches ya in the corners...that means that he`s better at cornering than you are (regardless of what track it is).
The DASA motor was after the building of the 400 motor. I didn't just pass him in the turn, I ran off and left him afterwards. Note that I "looked back... and he was still 15 feet behind me."
Yeah I figured as much...I in NO WAY figured ya were sayin` that ya were smokin` him w/ your totally stock motor!!!
. I STILL don`t believe that you were runnin` off & leavin` his DASA built 450R w/ your mods though. By all means...post up some videos of that chit & let me evaluate them.
It's not all rider that passed him, and I don't have a stock CDI, it's a Dyna FS. As for gears, they're not TOO tall for the motor, I still hit 5th if I'm having to run hard, which is when I pass the B/S'ed banshee, and the 502 YFZ. In case you think I'm running too short i am running a 15/39 gearing.
I didn`t say that it was ALL rider...but it`s DEFINITELY NOT ALL MOTOR that`s gettin` ya (w/ your Z & the mods it has currently) around that DASA 450R though!!!...Sorry, but I`m not buyin` it that your Z is walkin` on his 450R...hangin` with it...MAYBE...but walkin` on it...NO.
As for your specific gearing...it`s hard to say/tell...I`d have to actually ride it on the track/tracks that you ride/race on & evaluate myself as to whether or not I`d run the same gearing. We may not agree on/like the same gearing for any given track.
Another thing that tells me it's not all rider, is the weekend I broke my ankle I was actually running through a crowd of guys that ran the national events, and one of which won 4 of the shorter tracks.
^^^^^In that case...ya need to start runnin` the Extreme Dirt Nationals then if ya have the funds to do so. It sounds like ya have the potential to bring home some trophies in that series.
Don't know if you've seen the nationals run, we were getting and easy 60-65 mph in the turns, and it's nothing on a good hot lap to run 80's on the straights.
I`ve only been to the `85 (or `86 maybe it was) GNC TT National at Ashtabula (the Pro 3-wheelers were clockin` 90MPH on Pine Lake`s front straight...those were the days of Marty Hart/Curtis Sparks/Mickey Dunlap/Jimmie White/Tim Helter/Gary Denton/Donnie Banks) & to some of the GNC TT Nationals at Deerfield Speedway back when they also hosted them & then to Buckeye Speedway when they took over the 2nd Ohio GNC TT National events from Deerfield (this was all back in the mid-late `80`s & through the 90`s...back when it was all one series that combined MX/TT/Oval racing to crown the AATVA/GNC Championship)...Farr/Hitt/Byrd/Jones/Goodman/& Keith Little were ALL just YOUNG pups (Gust was in his prime back then of course) & they HAULED AZZ on Deerfield & Buckeye`s back straights too!...So yeah...I KNOW what the speeds involved in Oval & TT racin` are.
Granted I COULD go with the FCR and larger head pipe to really run through the pack, but I plan on building another 450R next year, so what would it matter.
If your Z runs THAT good now w/o a better carb & headpipe...why are ya givin` up on it & buildin` another 450R for next year?...I mean chit man...from the sounds of it all ya needa do is do a carb & headpipe upgrade & you`ll be "runnin` through" your competiton now!!! (at least to hear you tell it anyway!!!). . A carb & headpipe is ALOT cheaper than goin` out & pickin` up another 450R & moddin` it up last time I checked.
Since they also race froma roling start there was not a need for building to a quick launch off the line.
Yeah I know that BBK`s add more reciprocating weight/mass...& the bigger the BBK...the more it adds (that`s why I favor the smaller sized BBK`s...they add a nice boost in power, but they still have a quick rev...which to me is yet another one of those "happy median" things.
).Granted it does still have the stock carb and head pipe.
^^^^^THAT`S what I`m sayin`!!! Those 2 things right there are KILLIN` your "purpose built high RPM motor" (which ya basically acknowledged that fact & you`re aware that ya need to upgrade those 2 things in the future.
). The two situations, the 400EX and the 450R are actually at different locations, and it different times. I guess I should have noted that. The last time the EX lined up it was a joke on the TT track, the only time he caught me was when I was stock.
That`s basically irrelevent...the main thing is...that the guy on the 400EX catches ya in the corners...that means that he`s better at cornering than you are (regardless of what track it is).
The DASA motor was after the building of the 400 motor. I didn't just pass him in the turn, I ran off and left him afterwards. Note that I "looked back... and he was still 15 feet behind me."
Yeah I figured as much...I in NO WAY figured ya were sayin` that ya were smokin` him w/ your totally stock motor!!!
. I STILL don`t believe that you were runnin` off & leavin` his DASA built 450R w/ your mods though. By all means...post up some videos of that chit & let me evaluate them. It's not all rider that passed him, and I don't have a stock CDI, it's a Dyna FS. As for gears, they're not TOO tall for the motor, I still hit 5th if I'm having to run hard, which is when I pass the B/S'ed banshee, and the 502 YFZ. In case you think I'm running too short i am running a 15/39 gearing.
I didn`t say that it was ALL rider...but it`s DEFINITELY NOT ALL MOTOR that`s gettin` ya (w/ your Z & the mods it has currently) around that DASA 450R though!!!...Sorry, but I`m not buyin` it that your Z is walkin` on his 450R...hangin` with it...MAYBE...but walkin` on it...NO.
As for your specific gearing...it`s hard to say/tell...I`d have to actually ride it on the track/tracks that you ride/race on & evaluate myself as to whether or not I`d run the same gearing. We may not agree on/like the same gearing for any given track.
Another thing that tells me it's not all rider, is the weekend I broke my ankle I was actually running through a crowd of guys that ran the national events, and one of which won 4 of the shorter tracks.
^^^^^In that case...ya need to start runnin` the Extreme Dirt Nationals then if ya have the funds to do so. It sounds like ya have the potential to bring home some trophies in that series.
Don't know if you've seen the nationals run, we were getting and easy 60-65 mph in the turns, and it's nothing on a good hot lap to run 80's on the straights.
I`ve only been to the `85 (or `86 maybe it was) GNC TT National at Ashtabula (the Pro 3-wheelers were clockin` 90MPH on Pine Lake`s front straight...those were the days of Marty Hart/Curtis Sparks/Mickey Dunlap/Jimmie White/Tim Helter/Gary Denton/Donnie Banks) & to some of the GNC TT Nationals at Deerfield Speedway back when they also hosted them & then to Buckeye Speedway when they took over the 2nd Ohio GNC TT National events from Deerfield (this was all back in the mid-late `80`s & through the 90`s...back when it was all one series that combined MX/TT/Oval racing to crown the AATVA/GNC Championship)...Farr/Hitt/Byrd/Jones/Goodman/& Keith Little were ALL just YOUNG pups (Gust was in his prime back then of course) & they HAULED AZZ on Deerfield & Buckeye`s back straights too!...So yeah...I KNOW what the speeds involved in Oval & TT racin` are.
Granted I COULD go with the FCR and larger head pipe to really run through the pack, but I plan on building another 450R next year, so what would it matter.
If your Z runs THAT good now w/o a better carb & headpipe...why are ya givin` up on it & buildin` another 450R for next year?...I mean chit man...from the sounds of it all ya needa do is do a carb & headpipe upgrade & you`ll be "runnin` through" your competiton now!!! (at least to hear you tell it anyway!!!).
. A carb & headpipe is ALOT cheaper than goin` out & pickin` up another 450R & moddin` it up last time I checked. QUOTE (98Tacoma @ Oct 3 2008, 10:15 AM)
he has a dyna cdi
it says in his sig
it says in his sig
Yup. (See above for explanation on that.
)
Well, wether you believe or not, it happened. Whether the stars were aligned or whatever, it happened.
And in doing so moved me into 5th position in the points, so I go back next weekend, broken ankle and all, to get my trophie.
I do plan on running the AMP series with some of these guys over the winter, but i gotta be geared way shorter or I'll be racing in 2nd gear.
I don't think I'm over driven ALL the way on the Z but I am overdriven by roughly a tooth and a half on the front(counting the rear sprocket)
I imagine I will be going to the Tulsa shootout next year, They guy from sandtrax that always leads the pack runs it every year.
To give you and idea we are running just under a 1/4 mile oval, turning 15.8-16.8 second laps. Lonnie Eubanks of SandTrax is running 15.3-15.8 second laps. On average the cars that come there to run only hit 19 and 20 second laps.
We do plan on shooting some video next season, this season was our learning experience in finding out what to do do get better.
There is supposed to be somebody with some still shots during the races, I'll post them if I figure out where they are.
Just a side note. People on forums are way too quick to "call bullchit" even though they didn't see it go down or they don't believe it's possible. Without first hand knowledge and experience on the given issue, there's no way they can say 100% that it couldn't happen.
In my case, it's turning out that a some of the lower hp machines are outrunning the high power machines. Different reasons for each one, like the BBK's not getting back up to RPM on the straights. In a different situation, the bigger motors I'm sure would win. (drag racing etc.) But give that we only spend 6 seconds or less on the straights, they can't get to the power.
This could also be the reason I squeezed out the DASA guy.
And in doing so moved me into 5th position in the points, so I go back next weekend, broken ankle and all, to get my trophie.
I do plan on running the AMP series with some of these guys over the winter, but i gotta be geared way shorter or I'll be racing in 2nd gear.
I don't think I'm over driven ALL the way on the Z but I am overdriven by roughly a tooth and a half on the front(counting the rear sprocket)
I imagine I will be going to the Tulsa shootout next year, They guy from sandtrax that always leads the pack runs it every year.
To give you and idea we are running just under a 1/4 mile oval, turning 15.8-16.8 second laps. Lonnie Eubanks of SandTrax is running 15.3-15.8 second laps. On average the cars that come there to run only hit 19 and 20 second laps.
We do plan on shooting some video next season, this season was our learning experience in finding out what to do do get better.
There is supposed to be somebody with some still shots during the races, I'll post them if I figure out where they are.
Just a side note. People on forums are way too quick to "call bullchit" even though they didn't see it go down or they don't believe it's possible. Without first hand knowledge and experience on the given issue, there's no way they can say 100% that it couldn't happen.
In my case, it's turning out that a some of the lower hp machines are outrunning the high power machines. Different reasons for each one, like the BBK's not getting back up to RPM on the straights. In a different situation, the bigger motors I'm sure would win. (drag racing etc.) But give that we only spend 6 seconds or less on the straights, they can't get to the power.
This could also be the reason I squeezed out the DASA guy.
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